Guest

• Matt Widmyer

More Data vs. More Deals – Part 1

• Part #1 Episode Page

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Kevin Dieny: Hello. Welcome back to the Close The Loop podcast. I’m your host, Kevin Dieny. And we will jump back into the second part of the episode on data versus deals, intuitive driven decision-making versus data-driven decision-making here in a second. I wanted to do a brief shout out to my former colleague, Matt Widmyer.

[00:00:17] Kevin Dieny: He’s moved on a new position, but I really have enjoyed having him as my coworker. I’ve learned a ton from buddy. The chair is always here for you and you’re ready to do more episodes with me. With that, thanks for listening and enjoy the rest of the episode.

[00:00:32] Matt Widmyer: That’s a fun conversation always having too with, um, you know, a sales leader will come up and say, this doesn’t work, stop doing it, but you actually have data in your back pocket saying it does work. A fair question though, is ask it’s like, how do you know this doesn’t work, even though you kind of know in the back of your head?

[00:00:48] Matt Widmyer: Um, it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a matter of like, you know, it’s not like a contest or anything like that, but it is like, I think you have a good idea. And I think that you’re all everyone’s intention is well here, but I think that if maybe it didn’t work in the past, but maybe that’s changed, you know, you have to look at, you have to also accept the fact that things change.

[00:01:10] Matt Widmyer: Um, in terms of like the marketing, you know, like a marketing is gonna get data, they don’t need, that’s just part of it. Um, The main thing is like, okay, did something get learned one way or another? If the answer is yes then cool. And it’s not about the one extra data point for that one extra person, it’s about, um, getting enough from everybody to be able to accurately change or not change something.

[00:01:38] Matt Widmyer: And, um, that should be done by scale. If you have. one Data point, it might not help that one person, but if it helps the other five or six, and now it’s a new process that we have in place based on that, um, that could be the difference of thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars for the company over the course of a year.

[00:02:02] Matt Widmyer: So it’s, um, it’s a matter of. Scale. It’s not a matter of like that one time that they were about to go to lunch. And then you walked over and told them about this new thing. We’re introducing. It’s about the big picture. And if it is about the big picture you want the the other leaders in the organization, at least the main point person in sales should take the time to understand it, and then let their team know why it’s important instead of just griping about having to do one extra.

[00:02:33] Matt Widmyer: thing And then, you know, obviously if the, if the sales leaders are having that conversation all the way up to, depending on the size of your organization, all the way up to maybe even the owner, right? Like, Hey, this isn’t happening. I really need this. Can you help me out? Um, usually the answer, if it’s, it’s all about selling, even if, even though marketing isn’t technically in sales, you’re still going to have to sell somebody on why we should be doing something a little bit differently, but for the sake of.

[00:03:03] Matt Widmyer: learning Um, it’s both teams have skin in the game. Absolutely. And the end goal, like you said, is to deals are the end goal because without deals that, you know, we the company doesn’t stay afloat. So how do we make more deals happen? Salespeople have to absolutely understand the value that marketing provides and marketing has to understand what salespeople do on a daily basis.

[00:03:29] Matt Widmyer: It’s a two way street.

[00:03:31] Kevin Dieny: So let me, I mean, you make a really good point, so it’s kind of hard for me to make the counterpoint.

[00:03:36] Matt Widmyer: Hah hah that’s, that’s my goal.

[00:03:40] Kevin Dieny: So here’s the, here’s a little argument against, um, what you’re saying. Cause what you’re saying is great, but just from like so many examples, we could have data that conclusively almost beyond.

[00:03:53] Kevin Dieny: a doubt Show significantly that something is either not working or is working. And if we did more of something or less of something, it would have an overwhelmingly positive impact. It could be totally obvious that something is going to make a significant impact on the overall business. It’s going to sell more.

[00:04:11] Kevin Dieny: Let’s say the data shows this and to let’s say the marketing team, let’s say to another team, it’s like, oh man, this is my golden ticket. Okay. That comes to. The sales team that goes to another team that goes to their management and go away up the chain. Whyin Why would the company not do something about it?

[00:04:32] Kevin Dieny: Now? One of the big reasons that can happen is that a company and a team is strained in it’s leadership capital. So. If the change requires leadership or teams to adjust in some way that they’re just unwilling to do they’re inflexible to do it requires too much for them to actually make a difference on.

[00:04:55] Kevin Dieny: Or if, look, we just, uh, their manager’s like, look, I can’t ask them to do that. I can’t police that. I can’t enforce that. If it’s an unenforceable thing, I can’t make it a rule. That’s just inherent then Right. So. When, even if the data says, look, there’s jolly rainbows at the end of this, there’s a, there’s a, a treasure chest.

[00:05:15] Kevin Dieny: All you have to do is follow this. path Why in the world wouldn’t they do that. Right? The other side is going to be like, well, I can’t ask my team to gather that. I can’t ask my team to do that. I don’t have any management capital. And by that, I mean, I can’t ask my team to do anymore. I’ve already strained my ability to ask them I’m whipping them.

[00:05:35] Kevin Dieny: I’m forcing them to do something and I can’t ask them to do another thing. And I’m spent, and I can’t. So that’s a separate problem. Right? Than the data problem, it’s a separate one. That’s a leadership management problem. to tackle But at the end of the day, it’s like, man, I just brought them a gold. I just brought them the path to the treasure map and they’re not willing to go do it.

[00:05:56] Kevin Dieny: And that can feel really frustrating. So, um, that, that would be a point I would say that could come up in a, in a company, in a business. Is that the. They could have all of the signs and all the data that in the world to show them that there’s something that’s going to drastically increase their selling, but to them, they’re going to, they’re going to weigh things, not necessarily costs.

[00:06:22] Kevin Dieny: They’re going to weigh things against that. That may come up and say, it’s just too costly. It’s not the dollars that are too costly. It’s it’s, you know, this is not a team that can do that.

[00:06:33] Matt Widmyer: Right. So it’s, it’s usually it. I mean, salesperson and it, as a disclaimer, I’m a sales person at heart. I always have been.

[00:06:43] Kevin Dieny: We’re not bashing. We’re not bashing the sales side.

[00:06:45] Matt Widmyer: But salespeople are, everybody knows they’re for the most. part Just very generally speaking, they’re allergic to. change And when it’s, cause they all have a process you know there’s a CRM process, but they all have their process and the way they do things and a lot of them are successful what they do.

[00:07:04] Matt Widmyer: So if I’m a sales leader and even if you are bringing me that golden ticket, if. If my top performer, Tommy only works off spreadsheets and had does things his own way. And he makes me look really good. Cause he’s consistently sells every single month. He doesn’t need your data point is basically what that’s saying.

[00:07:27] Matt Widmyer: Right. But it, which is the wrong message to convey, but that’s it, that’s where things start getting tricky. Right? It’s like we’re making exceptions for some and not for others. Uh, there’s no universal rollout. This process, my advice to the marketing people out there is to absolutely introduce new things, uh, but do it in small little bite sized chunks.

[00:07:54] Matt Widmyer: If you introduce five new fields at once, um, good luck. It’s probably not going to happen. Now. You can require the fields from, uh, most CRMs, have the ability to put a requirement on these fields But then you start, you know, if it’s not a data point that’s collected over the phone or through email or whatever, it’s not going to, it’s going to be a bogus thing anyway.

[00:08:16] Matt Widmyer: And then you’re back to where you started, which is not being able to rely on the data. So be I would say, you know, we do a pretty good job of it here. Just, you know, we we we we aren’t trying to change the world overnight, you know, it’s just like, Hey, I wonder what this would look like if we got this and stuff, it’s, it’s usually no more than like one or two.

[00:08:36] Matt Widmyer: At a time and it’s, it doesn’t happen, you know, very frequently. I’d say a couple of times a year, um, tops. So, um, just very, very, very gradual process.

[00:08:49] Kevin Dieny: I think what’s important here too, is we’re kind of throwing this bone at the management side of any team. Uh, the reps May not have full control over and a lot of what we’re discussing here, right?

[00:09:02] Kevin Dieny: Like they’re just like, look, I’m at the whims of what I need to sell. So whatever my billing, my accounting, my company needs me to do to sell that is absolutely a a minimum, the things that you’re asking me to do in addition, they better be important to my manager, my manager better be like, yeah, I want you to do this.

[00:09:19] Kevin Dieny: Cause otherwise, you know, it’s getting in the way of selling. Um, there’s this really painful stat comes from Salesforce. You have it too Matt Sales reps spend only 34%. So roughly a third of their time on selling activities. Right? So a third of the time on selling activities. So what’s the other two thirds. So only a third is spent selling your salesperson is only spending a third of their time spent selling So what is the other time being spent on? Right. Well, if it’s administrative. Data entry if it’s okay. You know, walking over to someone, having meetings, like what’s getting in the way, and if you’re a leader or your manager, like, well, not adding anything more to that, taking away from their selling time. So it, like you said, it’s gotta make sense to that sales team, that sales managers, especially, especially if they’re trying to guide and manage their team.

[00:10:11] Kevin Dieny: If the sales manager is just kind of there. I don’t know Hoo rah the team. Um, it’s not going to matter to them anyway. Uh, the management’s goal for a team that they are over would be to help and improve what they’re doing. And if it’s look, my job is to help my team be more efficient. Data has a huge impact on that.

[00:10:31] Kevin Dieny: But if it’s not, you know, learning your own organization is kind of a big thing for at least any team that wants to work better or more collaboratively with the sales organization.

[00:10:42] Matt Widmyer: Yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s different kinds of managers here, right? There’s people managers who are really good at getting the raw, raw going get the, you know, getting them, keeping the morale up and keeping everyone motivated.

[00:10:52] Matt Widmyer: And there’s data managers, um, data managers are buried in spreadsheets and dashboards and reporting and all that stuff. And that’s, you know, you need to look at both. You need to look at what’s going on the dashboard and what’s happening outside of the dashboard. You need to get. Um, get feedback and figure out, you know, Hey, how’s this going?

[00:11:11] Matt Widmyer: And, um, you know, it’s, it’s tough, but you do need, I think the ideal manager should be a combination. of both Um, they they’re making good business decisions, uh, based on data that is being collected and presented to them. And they’re keeping at this while they’re simultaneously keeping the morale up on their team.

[00:11:31] Matt Widmyer: It’s, it’s, it’s not an easy job to, to, to juggle both those things but that would be, I don’t know if you’d agree here, but that would be based on my experience. I would think that would be the ideal. manager

[00:11:45] Kevin Dieny: Yeah, cause that’s a repeatable trainable, scalable, standardized. Um, the other thing here is like, okay, so let’s say there’s a recipe. If I was to put together what, as a marketing side, as another, another part of the business, you want to improve sales, you want to help sales. You want to understand what’s going on there.

[00:12:05] Kevin Dieny: You really do need to have that conversation. Okay. What’s your process. What’s going on? How do you do things? You know, what what’s required of you? Uh, what things does you manager pay attention to? You know, that’s really another good way to start, but other things are like, well, What parts along their process are really contributing to the value and what parts are not right?

[00:12:24] Kevin Dieny: Like what’s the 34% they’re spending on selling activities. And what’s the other stuff like knowing what meetings they have may not be that important to you, but knowing what the whole projects and stuff they are involved in might be. So how you’re going to work with that team? How are you going to work with a selling organization is going to come down a lot of times to having a bearing on the closing of a deal.

[00:12:45] Matt Widmyer: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:12:46] Kevin Dieny: So from their side it is how are you going to help me?

[00:12:50] Matt Widmyer: That’s it, that’s what it comes down to you, you need to be able to be ready ready and able to answer that question too. It’s not as quick as they’d like, no matter how you slice it usually. Right. It’s usually an overtime period of thing, but you also do, you know, it is it’s funny cause uh, It should be the sales.

[00:13:07] Matt Widmyer: If you come to us, if I’m a sales leader and you come to me with something that could change my team, I want my team to do that period. Right. So the other side of the coin is like, oh, well, Tommy again, number one, rep is Tommy who works off only spreadsheets. Well, I don’t, I, Tommy, can you fill out this data point?

[00:13:27] Matt Widmyer: Because, uh, I think we can close a lot more deals like this time. He’s like, yeah, I get lost. And just going to keep doing my thing. The manager’s not going to get, if he keeps closing month over month, it’s, it’s a very hard conversation for a sales manager to have, right. Because maybe they’re even buddies.

[00:13:46] Matt Widmyer: Maybe they go golfing on the weekends or whatever. Right. Um, it’s a tough conversation for sales managers to have, because. It’s what kind of consequences are you going to introduce, right. To hit this person this over performer, not doing a marketing activity. And it’s interesting. Cause I’ve seen this a few times since usually, you know, it’s, it might be a stern conversation at the very most, but then it it’s, it’s usually, um, it usually doesn’t help a whole lot.

[00:14:18] Matt Widmyer: So, um, there are other things that can be done, but it is, it does need to be enforced it’s on the salespeople. It’s on the sales leaders who are going to be benefited the most by this golden ticket scenario that needs to be enforcing this. And it’s, um, it’s a tough pill to swallow, but if you hold everybody over performers and under performers to the same standard and roll this out as a global change.

[00:14:46] Matt Widmyer: Even you know, sales managers will put their spin on it. Look, I don’t like it either, but it trust me, it’s a, it’s gonna, it’s gonna work. If I’m a, if I’m a sales person, um, no one’s ever going to get fired over it. It’s just, and and again, it’s a tough thing to, it’s a. Tough ask, but, uh, for, for some things, but again, allergic to change.

[00:15:09] Matt Widmyer: So it is, you have to choose your battles and in a situation like that, it’s like, okay, maybe we can just get that data point from everyone else, except for that one person. And then eventually the cream will rise to the top, but, but it, it, sometimes it does. And sometimes it doesn’t. Right. So, um, Yeah, that’s the unfortunate truth of everything happening.

[00:15:31] Matt Widmyer: But, it is because by having that conversation and worse. Okay. So what happens if you do okay, I’m going to write you up if you don’t put, uh, that data point and that field. So now you’re creating this, like this perfectly happy employee has now taken like a morale hit and then even the other people around the team are like, Yeah, what’s going on here.

[00:15:53] Matt Widmyer: It’s like, this is getting weird and this was this used to be fun. And now they’re just like making us do all these weird things. So it’s going to, again, you have to choose your battles, but I think that the best thing, small gradual tweaks, um, And they need to be held accountable because you aren’t going to come over as a marketer and go over to the sales team and be like, Hey, well, how come you didn’t put this in this field?

[00:16:16] Matt Widmyer: It’s not your job to do that. It’s your job to come over with recommendations. And then it’s up to the sales leaders to be able to implement some of these things, to make us all win.

[00:16:26] Kevin Dieny: Yeah. So let me, we’ll go into like the final bit concluding bits here, but let me just totally slam the gut intuitive-driven organization for a second here. I’m just going to totally slam that argument. All right. And then we can do that on the other side, if we want and then go totally pro that side. So here’s the total.

[00:16:47] Kevin Dieny: Anti-intuitive driven argument. Right? So if you’re a selling organization and you’re going off intuitive, driven, not, I’m not saying a hundred percent, but if you’re, you know, you’re leaning more toward the intuitive driven. side Okay. What that creates is like a culture, a pressure on your sales team to constantly have the right, almost perfect intuition at all times.

[00:17:12] Kevin Dieny: It also requires the manager to not quite know how to train their team perfectly, but to rely more on gut it’s, it’s kind of like, uh, it’s, it’s so much like football teams, right? It’s not knowing exactly how fast your teams are running. How, how many plays and things have been executed. well How well they’ve done on certain downs in certain places and certain combinations of players, it’s just sort of watching them and then, you know, intuitively making the assumption, taking in the information, assessing, you know, what’s happened and making kind of guesses and estimates.

[00:17:42] Kevin Dieny: Now the the track record. From Any study is that human beings are absolutely terrible at making predictions. They’re absolutely terrible assessing risk. They just kind of do maybe whatever they just recently saw. Oh, we played against a team that, you know, did a lot of things that worked well against us, you know, in a bubble that’s like just taking that information may you know, it’s not a hundred percent helpful all the time.

[00:18:08] Kevin Dieny: So intuitive driven selling just has so many pitfalls. Of being repeatable because it’s not necessarily repeatable every time. Right. There’s. It’s there’s so many possible customers, possible, patients possible everything, and it it’s so much easier to standardize quantify just some of the basic points along the journey and see how we can impact and influence those things.

[00:18:33] Kevin Dieny: If you don’t simplify everything down, you’re really dealing with everything. And if you ask if I’m on the marketing side and I go over to the sales team and I have a meeting with them and I say, Hey I’d like to know what’s going on. What’s you know, what’s gonna happen with you guys. Can you tell me what your initiatives are?

[00:18:49] Kevin Dieny: What projects you’re doing, what you’d like, you know, how things have been going with the stuff I’ve given you and all they have is just, Hmm. Let me just think for a minute. Okay. Let me just tell you from, you know, a few minutes of thinking about. it Everything you need to be successful. It’s never going to be good.

[00:19:03] Kevin Dieny: It’s not going to be great conversations. It’s going to be purely anecdotal. It’s not rich. It’s not filled with the, with the context you like the intuitive, intuitive, driven side is like, look, no other team could understand us. There’s no way they get the context and then what we’re doing and how we’re selling and how that, how they’re going to influence and impact us well.

[00:19:20] Kevin Dieny: The flip side is if we don’t know what’s going, if the other teams don’t know what’s going. on If they don’t understand even any contact, any valuable context, they don’t get enough context. There’s no way they’re going to know. And it creates barriers on both sides. So to me, intuitive driven creates let’s say four massive problems 1 it makes it so that it’s really hard to make the right decisions because most of them are going to be coin flips. 2 It makes it almost impossible for other teams to work with you. So it almost bashes cross functionality and throws it out the window. You’re basically going to be in a sales team, operating in a silo.

[00:19:59] Kevin Dieny: Your salespeople are going to have to do the marketing. They’re going to have to do the selling. They’re going to have to do the support, you’re piling so much on you. You thought you were going to spend spend more time. selling Wrong. Uh, 3 the next one is culture and sustainability. You are in no way creating a culture that new people can come into and learn quickly.

[00:20:17] Kevin Dieny: It’s really hard to make your team more efficient without, you know, the right information and data. And sometimes if something goes wrong, you may not know what the heck’s going on 4 and last, uh, forecasting predictions. So you’re kind of ended up, you can’t be strategic when you’re only living. day to day When your week to week, when, you know, at the end of the month, you’re like, oh man, I hope we hit our numbers.

[00:20:39] Kevin Dieny: You should know that, like a pretty good, you can even know a few weeks, months ahead of time with pretty high confidence. What’s going to happen if you understand your pipeline. So you can have the answers, you can be way more strategic and you can make decisions that impact the. flow Right at a time and a point where it’s actually going to make a difference.

[00:20:57] Kevin Dieny: So that is my very brutal slam of why being highly intuitive driven is just terrible for an organization.

[00:21:04] Matt Widmyer: Yeah. And if you don’t want to look at data, you might want to hire a fortune teller as a sales operations person.

[00:21:13] Kevin Dieny: Hey, the monkey, the monkey or the octopus picking bets, right. In Vegas it was more successful than every other human hedge fund manager better. It was incredible.

[00:21:25] Matt Widmyer: Give them their own office with their own crystal ball and everything. Oh man. This has been fun. This is one of the, um, this is definitely one of the jucier ones. And this is a, this is a very debatable thing. I mean, I would be surprised if anyone listening to this has not experienced this to some degree, um, at their organization.

[00:21:46] Matt Widmyer: So this is, this has been a fun one for me.

[00:21:49] Kevin Dieny: Yeah, I’ll, I’ll just quickly name a few things that are wrong. If you’re too data-driven we think we’ve laid them out. You’re going to alienate sales team. If you have data that doesn’t connect to deals that you’re just. Wasting time. Uh, it’s gotta make sense, gotta be able to show value there. It’s got to mean more than just to your team.

[00:22:06] Kevin Dieny: It’s got to mean something to the whole company. And in addition, there’s, you know, how complex is it? It’s really important that everyone on the sales team, everyone on the marketing team, marketing on whatever team understands what all the data points mean. If you look at a data point and you’re like, what does this mean?

[00:22:21] Kevin Dieny: Again? Like you may have been told and you just forget, that’s fine. But if you have no idea, What all this stuff is that you’re gathering. That’s a huge red flag. Why am I gathering this data point? Like, why do I care this person’s name? Right. Like there’s a reason behind that. And it’s pretty important to know it is helpful for you, but you know, And then the last one is like, Teams are stretched usually with resources and time or management capital.

[00:22:49] Kevin Dieny: So having a, you know, good assessment like, okay, right now, this team’s underwater, probably not a good time to ask them to gather data like you’ve mentioned. So, uh, that comes from a little bit of collaboration, communication, both sides. If it has to involve like leadership at the top to force it to. happen Uh, my best, not my favorite way for that to happen, but it can happen.

[00:23:10] Kevin Dieny: So that’s probably the slam against both sides, little bit brief on the data side, but data is just, I’m just a fan of the data. And I can, there’s so many times learning this along the way that you, even if you’re a fan, you have the treasure. map And you feel like you’re just going to change the world, you know, take the world by storm.

[00:23:30] Kevin Dieny: It just doesn’t end up happening because there’s a lot more involved than just simply, you know, more data does not always mean more deals and more deals do not always come from the gut.

[00:23:46] Matt Widmyer: Yeah, it’s funny too. Cause you see, you know, I wish we had enough examples of someone who was very good at using a CRM and they’re like a rockstar salesperson.

[00:23:55] Matt Widmyer: It’s it’s, it’s usually the opposite. They’re usually either really good at the CRM and not so good at selling or, or they’re. Not that they don’t use CRM nearly as much as they should be, but they are, you know, they do sell a ton. So it’s like, it’s tough because it doesn’t paint a very good picture for, for what we’re trying to convey here.

[00:24:14] Matt Widmyer: It’s uh, it’s I wish we had more case studies, but it’s like, yeah, it is. It tells a bad story, right. For the people who were entering everything in perfectly. And, um, you know, they, they aren’t having that much luck on the sales side. It’s it’s unfortunate, but it does happen that way. too

[00:24:32] Kevin Dieny: There are tools designed to help you get back leadership management, capital like tools that. Analyze your team for you teams that tell you what your team is doing. Teams, uh, tools that may even gather information from, you know, conversations that are happening with your team, with customers and stuff.

[00:24:50] Kevin Dieny: And so that they don’t have to be the ones doing all the data entry. And there’s a lot of stuff out there designed to try to help a team, a management, a leadership role person, anything like that, to make sure that they’re getting the data. If you need data, if the company needs it and the team won’t do it.

[00:25:07] Kevin Dieny: They’re probably going to go force another team to do it. And it’s unfortunate if you turn like entire operations around the selling the sales team to do the things that that sales team should be doing, it’s unfortunate, but I’ve seen it. It happens.

[00:25:21] Matt Widmyer: yeah, those companies you’re talking about too, are either either just taking over the market too, and now that everything’s going remote and everything, um, that’s becoming a lot more of a need than it was in the past too. So that’s a, there are definitely tools out there that you can use to do that.

[00:25:36] Kevin Dieny: So I would say, you know, find the right combination of data, uh, that is the most meaningful that you could take action on that you plan to take action on that you were important to measure that people understand down through the organization and that will ultimately impact and the closing or the selling of more revenue for your organization.

[00:26:00] Kevin Dieny: Now, if it’s like pick a side Like, okay. Pick the data side or pick the intuition side. I’m on the data side. I’ll just, I mean, I’m just gonna be forthcoming, but it’s not like pure data is going to be the winner and it’s not like intuition is going to be the winner. There’s some right combination of that.

[00:26:15] Kevin Dieny: And that kind of depends on management, leadership styles, culture in the company, and a lot of other factors. So is there anything else, Matt, you want to say that we may have missed

[00:26:24] Matt Widmyer: yeah, I mean, no, I think, I think we pretty much, I think we nailed it. I mean, I think we’ve, we’ve been going back and forth and I think just, you know, small bite-size chunks would be my advice, build value on both sides and do the ride along.

[00:26:36] Matt Widmyer: I mean, it’s, it’s a little bit harder, especially if you have remote teams now it’s a little harder to do it, but take the time to understand what the other person goes through on a daily basis. It’s kind of like what, you know, if you apply, if you ever apply to be part of the police force or something like that, the ride along the physical ride along in the police car, it’s like, are you sure you want to do this?

[00:26:54] Matt Widmyer: Are you sure you want to, um, it’s kind of the same type of thing. Do the, do the ride along with your marketing guy or, you know, with the, with one of the salespeople and kind of figure out, you know, why is it. Maybe you thought it was going to be a really simple thing for those couple extra data points.

[00:27:10] Matt Widmyer: Maybe it’s super cumbersome on there, but, you know, from based on their experience. So, um, just take the time outside of, um, out step outside of the numbers. And I guess just look at what’s actually going on, I guess would be my advice to both sides. Really.

[00:27:27] Kevin Dieny: I’d also, say if you’re a manager of one of those teams, including a manager of another team or someone from the other team and to like a man in, to a weekly monthly I don’t know how often you have a team meeting or something, uh, clues them in into what’s important. That’s sometimes a pretty good way to just do it and they can just be a fly on the wall.

[00:27:46] Kevin Dieny: Right. You don’t have to take any extra time to do anything that could be the very simplest step to involving increasing collaboration. They may have. ideas For your business or be like, oh, why, you know, we don’t need these other, you guys have been gathering these data points. I didn’t even know. There’s a lot of things that happen there.

[00:28:04] Kevin Dieny: So, this has been a very in-depth back and forth debate on whether companies, whether anyone should be focusing more data or more deals. So, with that, we’ll, we’ll close out. So thanks Matt. And, thank you for listening to the Close The Loop podcast.

[00:28:22] Matt Widmyer: Absolutely. Thanks Kevin, thanks everybody.